Over-enrolment = fewer offers for Fall 2024?

Forum for the GRE subject test in mathematics.
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frakslluvr
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:28 pm

Over-enrolment = fewer offers for Fall 2024?

Post by frakslluvr » Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:10 pm

I think this cycle will be the most competitive we've seen so far.

The following statement is taken from Cornell's math department website: "The Graduate Field of Mathematics will not admit doctoral students for Fall 2024. Our Program is bigger than its typical steady-state size: strong recruiting has caused a modest increase, while COVID-impact has lengthened the typical time-to-Ph.D. We are committed to providing enhanced funding to our current students. We will resume regular admissions next year for students to matriculate in Fall 2025."

I also know for a fact that UPenn and Minnesota are both planning on a drastically smaller incoming class size to counter this year's over-enrolment, even if they are not publicly announcing it. I suspect that this might be a trend across the board. What do you guys think? Do you know of any other programs who are either not admitting students this cycle or are admitting fewer students than normal?

mathph
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:39 pm

Re: Over-enrolment = fewer offers for Fall 2024?

Post by mathph » Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:26 am

frakslluvr wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2023 10:10 pm
I think this cycle will be the most competitive we've seen so far.

The following statement is taken from Cornell's math department website: "The Graduate Field of Mathematics will not admit doctoral students for Fall 2024. Our Program is bigger than its typical steady-state size: strong recruiting has caused a modest increase, while COVID-impact has lengthened the typical time-to-Ph.D. We are committed to providing enhanced funding to our current students. We will resume regular admissions next year for students to matriculate in Fall 2025."

I also know for a fact that UPenn and Minnesota are both planning on a drastically smaller incoming class size to counter this year's over-enrolment, even if they are not publicly announcing it. I suspect that this might be a trend across the board. What do you guys think? Do you know of any other programs who are either not admitting students this cycle or are admitting fewer students than normal?
COVID-19 aside. Every year schools will be getting either less or more than what they want - because they cannot possibly extend offers out one at a time until all spaces are filled, maybe with the exception with very small programs. They adjust accordingly.

I think Cornell just ducked up and sent out too many offers last year and received more students than needed. Perhaps they underestimate the percentage of students who will accept their offer.

Fall 2020 or Fall 2021? COVID-19 is a believable excuse.

Fall 2024 though? Gimme a break. It's like being a country and blaming The Cold Wars for your problems.

quinquenion
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Over-enrolment = fewer offers for Fall 2024?

Post by quinquenion » Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:15 am

Fall 2020 or Fall 2021? COVID-19 is a believable excuse.

Fall 2024 though? Gimme a break. It's like being a country and blaming The Cold Wars for your problems.
I don't know about the situation at Cornell. But as a faculty member at a peer institution, I can say that the students who should be graduating right now are less prepared to graduate than they would've been without the COVID-19 pandemic.

PhDs typically take 4-7 years. The students who started in 2019 and 2020 would've had a very disrupted first couple years. There's been a lot of talk about primary and secondary school students being a grade level behind due to the pandemic; a similar thing has happened at the graduate level. However, the bar for a PhD defense is still roughly where it's always been (though some of my colleagues have been complaining about it slipping), so it's taking a bit longer on average for students to graduate, and even a modest increase in time-to-graduate can cause funding shortfalls.

Your other point about matriculation rates and incorrect yield predictions is very well-made though.

LetMeIn2401
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:22 pm

Re: Over-enrolment = fewer offers for Fall 2024?

Post by LetMeIn2401 » Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:28 pm

I think Cornell and UPenn are slightly dysfunctional departments. Cornell declaring that they will not admit students after opening up the application portal is a severe sign of dysfunction (why not declare you won't take students before you open your portal?), the same is true with UPenn. Sure, departments overenroll from time to time (I think Minnesota is a generally good department), but certain departments (like Cornell) routinely admit extremely underprepared students and seem to generally care less about the admissions process in their graduate programs resulting in nonsense like this.

The good news is most departments are not dysfunctional so I don't think it will have too bad of an effect on this year's cycle, but keep in mind that there are more math students every year and generally the same number of math spots.

mathph
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:39 pm

Re: Over-enrolment = fewer offers for Fall 2024?

Post by mathph » Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:47 pm

LetMeIn2401 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:28 pm
I think Cornell and UPenn are slightly dysfunctional departments. Cornell declaring that they will not admit students after opening up the application portal is a severe sign of dysfunction (why not declare you won't take students before you open your portal?), the same is true with UPenn. Sure, departments overenroll from time to time (I think Minnesota is a generally good department), but certain departments (like Cornell) routinely admit extremely underprepared students and seem to generally care less about the admissions process in their graduate programs resulting in nonsense like this.

The good news is most departments are not dysfunctional so I don't think it will have too bad of an effect on this year's cycle, but keep in mind that there are more math students every year and generally the same number of math spots.
I'm having this immense fear that departments will just ghost us until April 15th, holding up everyone in the process. If you're waiting for my spot that I will decline if I can get into another school where I'm waitlisted which is currently waiting on the student who got accepted but waiting on ... that or having a waitlist that's 2-3 times the amount of open slots.

I think some schools are better than others in this aspect. By examining the data it seems most of the Ivies, Caltech, Uchicago, UCLA does a pretty good job at this. The other schools, not so much.

fiveier.analysis
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:24 pm

Re: Over-enrolment = fewer offers for Fall 2024?

Post by fiveier.analysis » Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:39 pm

LetMeIn2401 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:28 pm
I think Cornell and UPenn are slightly dysfunctional departments. Cornell declaring that they will not admit students after opening up the application portal is a severe sign of dysfunction (why not declare you won't take students before you open your portal?), the same is true with UPenn. Sure, departments overenroll from time to time (I think Minnesota is a generally good department), but certain departments (like Cornell) routinely admit extremely underprepared students and seem to generally care less about the admissions process in their graduate programs resulting in nonsense like this.

The good news is most departments are not dysfunctional so I don't think it will have too bad of an effect on this year's cycle, but keep in mind that there are more math students every year and generally the same number of math spots.
I submitted a full application with all 3 letters in already. But then I saw someone posting about they not accepting any applications so I was like "wtf?"

Contacted them to see if I can get a refund and got the run around basically grad school blaming applywebs and vice versa. It's ridiculous. I'm literally considering filing a chargeback because I feel like I'm somewhat scammed. (Yes I received a denial which is technically the product/service rendered for which I paid for, but still this honestly is the most inconsiderate thing a department can do to prospective students) This is of course a rant, but Cornell get your sh*t together and actually tell people in advance that you're not accepting applications, or just close the application out right. You should have known that after spring semester how many spaces available for new students.

I have drafted an angry (but polite) email to the director and have considered clicking the send button many times.

:( :evil: :x

BangentTundle
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:13 am

Re: Over-enrolment = fewer offers for Fall 2024?

Post by BangentTundle » Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:25 am

I also know for a fact that UPenn and Minnesota are both planning on a drastically smaller incoming class size to counter this year's over-enrolment, even if they are not publicly announcing it.
Please share your source for this information?



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