No research in undergrad; should I do an MS before considering PhD?

[magicbeanstalk]

I'm doing my undergrad at a middling state school with no research options. I do intend to write a Thesis paper. REU's aren't possible because of some health issues.

Am I too uncompetitive for PhD programs? Is it a better idea to go for a research MS first? I'm also considering "Bridge to PhD" programs, but I don't know if I'm competitive for those either. I have a good GPA and will have a few grad classes by the time I apply, but the low rank of my uni makes me wonder if my GPA even matters.

Thanks.

[wqwwp]

If you are willing to move outside the US, the following masters programs give you the opportunity to get into a top PhD if you perform well: Paris, Bonn, ALGANT, HUJI, ETH, EPFL

[magicbeanstalk]

But why would an international institution bother to accept me?

[amulkoolkool]

If you are willing to move outside the US, the following masters programs give you the opportunity to get into a top PhD if you perform well: Paris, Bonn, ALGANT, HUJI, ETH, EPFL

Hey, thanks for the advice. I am in a similar situation. I applied and have admission to Bonn, EPFL, Part III at Cambridge, and the Oxford MSc. Do you have any idea which ones are best if I want to go to a top PhD afterward (assuming I can perform well enough)?
Also, I have heard quite little about the Oxford MSc -- is it worth considering at all?

[amulkoolkool]

But why would an international institution bother to accept me?

Some of these masters, especially Bonn, EPFL, etc. (the ones from the continent, not Oxbridge) are quite uncompetitive. Surprisingly easy to get in and very large class sizes, with students of very varying ability, including IMO gold medalists. At that point, you just have to do very well there (which is a highly non-trivial endeavor), prove yourself, and that should certainly upgrade your chances of a good PhD program.

If you see my posts, I am in a similar situation and I am planning to go to Europe first for a masters.

[wqwwp]

If you are willing to move outside the US, the following masters programs give you the opportunity to get into a top PhD if you perform well: Paris, Bonn, ALGANT, HUJI, ETH, EPFL

Hey, thanks for the advice. I am in a similar situation. I applied and have admission to Bonn, EPFL, Part III at Cambridge, and the Oxford MSc. Do you have any idea which ones are best if I want to go to a top PhD afterward (assuming I can perform well enough)?
Also, I have heard quite little about the Oxford MSc -- is it worth considering at all?

Hi, I think it depends a bit on your area of interest. I only know for number theory and algebraic geometry (furthermore, the people I mention below are European so they mostly applied to Europe, if you're American you'll probably have a good shot at US programs as well but I can't guarantee anything). Also what I say below is my own and my friends's experience so don't take it as the absolute truth.

-Bonn: this is a really complete program and you will have tons and tons of lectures to pick from. It is a 2 year long program so you will be able to show your grades from the first year when you're applying to PhD's. You will have many truly strong classmates (IMO gold medalists, people who know a lot even before starting, etc.), but admission is not too competitive for Europeans so there will be some weaker classmates as well. The courses are really rigorous and a lot is expected in the written exams (especially alg.geo), but it's okay if you don't ace them (depending on the year, less than 20% get a B or better) because admission committees seem to know that they are insanely hard. I know quite a few people who studied there and got into very strong programs (mainly in Europe). Also tuition is something like $300 per semester and life in Germany is way cheaper than in the US or UK or Switzerland.

-Part III: I've seen that it is very well respected especially in the UK, but it is a 1 year program so you won't be able to show your grades unless you take a gap year or something. However, I know a couple of people who studied it and their algebraic geometry courses, for example, are a joke compared to Bonn's, and they learnt much less than if they had gone to the aforementioned program. The students here are, on average, stronger than in Bonn (admission is harder), but the top ones should be similar or maybe a little bit worse. I know that in Oxford students organize some study groups, but I don't know about Cambridge, because I've heard it's a more challenging. Nevertheless, the ones I know got very good grades here (I think getting good grades in part III is way easier than in bonn, since 2/3 get a distinction).

-Oxford: I know someone who studied this masters and got into some very top programs in Europe (including oxford), but he was already incredibly strong before starting, so I wouldn't take that as the norm. He told me it's a very chill program and there are a lot of study groups. Moreover, according to him, students are really strong there (and I can confirm given some of the admission results they had). So this seems like an easy program (compared to the two above) where you can learn a lot from your peers outside class as well.

-EPFL: I think this is a good program, and I know some people who studied it and got good admission results (though I'm not certain if they ended up going to top schools). Also it lasts for 1.5 years so you have some time to relax before starting the PhD.

So in terms of how difficult it is to get good grades, I am pretty certain the order is as follows:
Bonn > Part III > Oxford (I don't know about EPFL). I don't know which one gives you a better chance to get into good PhD programs. Bonn worked for some people I know (at least at the level of US Top 10 for some and 20 for others, or its international equivalent, and well, the IMO gold medalists go into any program they want really), but it takes an insane amount of work to perform well there, and the environment is very very competitive. You will probably have a better experience overall if you go to Oxbridge, unless you're very sociable or you have a really good work ethic. But anyway, I think every program you mention is very good and it's a tough choice.

[amulkoolkool]

If you are willing to move outside the US, the following masters programs give you the opportunity to get into a top PhD if you perform well: Paris, Bonn, ALGANT, HUJI, ETH, EPFL

Hey, thanks for the advice. I am in a similar situation. I applied and have admission to Bonn, EPFL, Part III at Cambridge, and the Oxford MSc. Do you have any idea which ones are best if I want to go to a top PhD afterward (assuming I can perform well enough)?
Also, I have heard quite little about the Oxford MSc -- is it worth considering at all?

Hi, I think it depends a bit on your area of interest. I only know for number theory and algebraic geometry (furthermore, the people I mention below are European so they mostly applied to Europe, if you're American you'll probably have a good shot at US programs as well but I can't guarantee anything). Also what I say below is my own and my friends's experience so don't take it as the absolute truth.

-Bonn: this is a really complete program and you will have tons and tons of lectures to pick from. It is a 2 year long program so you will be able to show your grades from the first year when you're applying to PhD's. You will have many truly strong classmates (IMO gold medalists, people who know a lot even before starting, etc.), but admission is not too competitive for Europeans so there will be some weaker classmates as well. The courses are really rigorous and a lot is expected in the written exams (especially alg.geo), but it's okay if you don't ace them (depending on the year, less than 20% get a B or better) because admission committees seem to know that they are insanely hard. I know quite a few people who studied there and got into very strong programs (mainly in Europe). Also tuition is something like $300 per semester and life in Germany is way cheaper than in the US or UK or Switzerland.

-Part III: I've seen that it is very well respected especially in the UK, but it is a 1 year program so you won't be able to show your grades unless you take a gap year or something. However, I know a couple of people who studied it and their algebraic geometry courses, for example, are a joke compared to Bonn's, and they learnt much less than if they had gone to the aforementioned program. The students here are, on average, stronger than in Bonn (admission is harder), but the top ones should be similar or maybe a little bit worse. I know that in Oxford students organize some study groups, but I don't know about Cambridge, because I've heard it's a more challenging. Nevertheless, the ones I know got very good grades here (I think getting good grades in part III is way easier than in bonn, since 2/3 get a distinction).

-Oxford: I know someone who studied this masters and got into some very top programs in Europe (including oxford), but he was already incredibly strong before starting, so I wouldn't take that as the norm. He told me it's a very chill program and there are a lot of study groups. Moreover, according to him, students are really strong there (and I can confirm given some of the admission results they had). So this seems like an easy program (compared to the two above) where you can learn a lot from your peers outside class as well.

-EPFL: I think this is a good program, and I know some people who studied it and got good admission results (though I'm not certain if they ended up going to top schools). Also it lasts for 1.5 years so you have some time to relax before starting the PhD.

So in terms of how difficult it is to get good grades, I am pretty certain the order is as follows:
Bonn > Part III > Oxford (I don't know about EPFL). I don't know which one gives you a better chance to get into good PhD programs. Bonn worked for some people I know (at least at the level of US Top 10 for some and 20 for others, or its international equivalent, and well, the IMO gold medalists go into any program they want really), but it takes an insane amount of work to perform well there, and the environment is very very competitive. You will probably have a better experience overall if you go to Oxbridge, unless you're very sociable or you have a really good work ethic. But anyway, I think every program you mention is very good and it's a tough choice.

Thanks so much for this advice. It was really very helpful. I really appreciate the effort you put into this post and the information you shared.